Interview with Vishal
November 26th, 2009
The idea of ‘citizen activism’ is daunting for many…
There’s always that famous Mother Teresa quote, something like: “Don’t look for a leader. Take your steps, and people will follow you.” I don’t think the focus should be on getting a lot of people together. I don’t think the focus should be on anything except you, yourself changing things. And automatically you’ll find, if your means, your methods and your objectives are true, then people will join up. And they won’t be followers, they’ll be partners. They’ll co-own that movement with you.
And in terms of process, the Constitution of India, gives you great power. You elect the government. They are your employees. In no uncertain terms. This is essential for any citizen to realise. They are at our beck and call, not the other way around. When you see that, it is a really empowering realisation. What you need to then do, is ‘action’ that power – which is actually yours, but has been co-opted by political parties. Our constitution gives you the legal right to question these people, to hold them accountable, to make sure that they do their jobs, because they are no different from your driver, or your cook or your peon in office or your accountant. If they don’t do their jobs you take them to task. It’s exactly the same for your local corporator, your MLA, your MP, your Ministers, your Prime Minister. They are elected to serve you, hence they are your servants. We should not be ashamed of saying this. We should be strong in knowing this. And take action against them when it is deserved.
How did you start out though? What were your first steps.
I’m privileged to have a wife who stood by me and encouraged Small Change. Secondly friends – people like Vijay Nair. He’s an entertainment manager, but a very big believer in people actually individually changing things. We had a long chat – and a lot of ideas came from there in terms of how we go about it. Then we needed to contact lawyers. Luckily I have very close friends, like Rustam Mulla, who are lawyers and who did help me. Most importantly, I was very angry and upset. But my wife cooled me down and said: “This is not the time for anger. It’s the time for clear rational thought and decisive action.” You need to take a step, and then another step. And then another, and another until something happens. I’m very grateful for the strength of people around me. You need a moral compass and professional guidance. There are people out there, you just have to ask. Take the personal favours, find the humility to ask for help and be grateful for it.
How did you spread the word?
There were people within the media who really helped. Especially the newspapers. The Hindustan Times carried it on their front page nationally. That really helped. A lot of people within media, including people from within television supported it. They actually made calls, sent out smses, told their friends. People from the film industry too went all out to support it. I called up everyone I knew, and said, “Please read it, and if you agree please tell everyone you know.” In a sense, it was a reflection of what people felt at that point. My only concern was that with all the candle lighting and petition signing people were getting rid of their guilt. So I didn’t want that to happen. I didn’t want anyone to sign up at Small Change and feel like they’ve done their part, fulfilled their obligation. I’ve tried to keep that fervour alive by constantly sending people updates, whenever anything happens. Even if something doesn’t happen for very long, I send them updates saying – this is where we are, this is why nothing’s happening. Now there’s the new petition that we’ve started to stop the statue in the sea – this colossal pilferage of public funds. If we can take this movement over time and build this consciousness, it can be a real force. That’s what I’m hoping for.
Why do you think so many post 26/11 citizen movements and groups died down? Did you have a group as well?
No, I did not start any group or movement. I am just one guy, who said, “I will do this. Would you guys like to support me by signing up here?” I am not looking for a consensus, or to find thirty people who are going to do this together. I didn’t want to start an organisation. I will personally take this thing to it’s end. And whoever wants to lend their weight to it with a signature, I will keep updating you as to what I’m doing to take this forward. It will be your movement as much as my movement, but I will happily do the work. I will take my personal time and energy and the help of my friends and take this to a conclusion, one way or the other. As for most citizen groups, creating more bureaucracy in a country that’s already laden with red tape goes nowhere. What we need is ‘individual activism’, individuals standing up and saying, “I don’t care if you beat me up, but I’m going to say this, I’m going to change this.”
Many groups at that point of time told me, “Come and speak here. Come and join this.” This march, that march, this, that. I asked all of them one question: “What is your objective? And towards that objective what is your timeline, your concrete plan?” If you don’t have an objective, you can’t achieve anything. You’re walking around in circles. You need to ‘aim’ those steps in a certain direction. For example, three lakh – or thirty thousand, whatever it was – people came to the Gateway Of India. They stood there, they lit their candles, they littered the place with posters and they walked away. At best they may have achieved the removal of the Chief Minister, which was utterly pointless. Not to say that the fervour was entirely wasted, but I just felt it might have been channelled better.
Then what you’re saying is that the citizen’s fervour was misguided?
I would just say it wasn’t channelled correctly.
Exactly. It wasn’t going anywhere …
Yeah, but you know Bombay has this long history of a day-long fervour. Or a week-long fervour. then, we forget.
What comes to your mind when you say that, before 26/11. The Bombay Riots?
You know the thing is, what we term resilience is in fact apathy: “It didn’t happen to me. I’m fine. I’m going to work or I won’t get paid.”
Was a similar fervour there then though – after the riots?
Not that i remember. What has caused it this time, is networking sites, a lot of jingoism and the blow by blow live coverage from the media – which had a positive effect in terms of waking up a lot of people, but a negative effect in terms of endangering soldiers by giving out a lot of classified information. I mean, besides discretion, the channels should have used their brains a little. We had a certain TV channel actually broadcast an interview with a fictional terrorist during this time, and allow him to spout anti-India propaganda, from supposedly inside the Taj Hotel. I don’t want to take their name, because I don’t want to give them the glory of a mention even. That’s just shameful, disgraceful, criminal and insane, all at the same time. In the course of my career henceforth I will never associate with that channel or do an interview with them in my life. They’re very popular because they prey on every superstition and every weakness among the Indian people. It’s a disgraceful organisation and a blot upon television media in this country.
Coming back to the post 26/11 groups which disappeared.
It’s a matter of simple human psychology. If there are seven hundred people in a group, then each person in that group feels that if I don’t do this job, somebody else will do it… Then human nature is such that out of 700 people, 700 will feel that. There’s a sense of it not really making a big difference, whether you continue your ‘vigilance’ or participation or activity. Groups tend to dilute individual energy. If a government wants to dissipate an investigation, for instance, they immediately give it to a committee. It’s an established bureaucratic tradition.
You’ve spoken about the Shivaji Statue in the sea being wasteful expenditure on part of the state, but you haven’t addressed the fact that it could be an icon that promotes parochialism and regionalism.
See, that’s the thing. Shivaji Maharaj and Maharashtrian pride certainly should go hand in hand. But Shivaji Maharaj and Indian pride should go hand in hand as well. They have limited Shivaji Maharaj’s glory to just Maharashtra. Why shouldn’t people in Bihar or Kashmir or Kerala be proud of his greatness too? He belongs to all Indians, not just petty political parties.
Just as terrorist organisations are misinterpreting the Koran and brainwashing young kids into being part of hatred and death internationally, in exactly the same way our regional parties are brainwashing misguided uneducated young people, using whatever iconic imagery they can to kind of get these people to become ‘parochial’, as you put it.
It’s really sad that a national icon can be reduced to this. The political parties don’t care about you – whether you’re a Maharashtrian or not. They care about your vote. And they will do their drama to get that vote – including beating up journalists, holding films to ransom – whatever gets them mileage and publicity. It’s the same with the statue.
What I am saying, first, is that 350 crores of the state’s money is being thrown away on what is essentially a showpiece. It’s a large showpiece, but still a showpiece. And on the other side, we have farmers dying, who don’t have money to eat. They don’t have the basic facilities to sell their crop. They depend on middlemen who are juicing the lifeblood out of them. We have a system that is seriously flawed. We have infrastructure that is so far gone that it is virtually missing. We have masses of illiterate children, and not nearly enough schools. Shivaji Maharaj’s own monuments lie neglected and collapsing. In the face of all this, with what conscience can you build this statue?
Secondly, do the people know that this statue is apparently, smack bang in the middle of the proposed sea link extension!? Now, 350 crores is the cost of the statue, not counting overruns which are inevitable. Because every government project has overruns. Apart from that, the proposed extension of the sea link which has been approved by the government, I am told, will have to go around the statue, adding a thousand odd crores to its cost. I don’t have facts and figures on this. I’ve made an RTI application asking for details. But this is what I’m given to understand. If this is the case, they are essentially robbing us blind – and it’s just sheer madness that we’re letting it go. Mr (Ashok) Chavan, the Chief Minister of Maharashtra has constantly said, “We will make sure that this statue will happen.” Let me, in reply, say “We will make sure that this statue does not happen.” No matter what we have to do, we will stop it. They have to understand that they don’t have the right to overrule the interests of the citizens of this country. They may be great powerful people and they might roam around in many cars with many multi coloured lights on them, but we will stop them.
In your petition against the statue in the ocean, you’ve called the undersigned “concerned citizens of India and Maharashtra” and “Bombayites, Mumbaikars” and “Bambaiwallahs”. What makes a person a Maharashtrian in your mind.
If you live here you’re Maharashtrian. I have a duty to clean up my street, city and state. If you live here, be grateful for what your street, your city, your state, your country has given you, and work towards bettering it. If you do that, you belong there. That’s my viewpoint.
Suppose a person has shifted to Maharashtra a month ago, and has a proper livelihood and address here. Would you call him a Maharashtrian?
Is he living here and making his livelihood here? Does he feel he owes allegiance to the state in anyway? If he does he’s a Maharashtrian. If in your heart you love your street and your city and your state and your country, then you belong to all of them. Nobody can take Bombay or Bambai or Mumbai from any Indian. Whether you’re Maharashtrian, Punjabi, Gujarati or Tamilian, it’s a matter of great pride to you and your culture and it’s wonderful, but if you’re not an Indian first then you have a serious problem. The concept of India is above any one region of India.
If you don’t want to speak Hindi or sing Vande Mataram, by all means, don’t do so. Tokenism is of no use to anyone. But love your country and do what you can to make it a better place. That is what makes an Indian. And that is what makes a Maharashtrian. If you’re in Maharashtra contribute to it, love it and care for everyone in Maharashtra, whether they are from Maharashtra or not. When you’re saying ‘son of the soil’, you should mean ‘son of the soil of India’.
There’s been a lot of demonstrations post 26/11. Why don’t we demonstrate against the terror unleashed by domestic sources – like the MNS workers? Because it doesn’t affect our class? Or because they are in the same city, and will retaliate against us with their mobs?
In today’s Hindustan Times Imran Khan, the actor, has stood up and denounced this form of terrorism. So a full-power salute to him. What is going on right now, is terrorism, but it is terrorism that is being condoned by the people who elected these parties. These parties are able to prey on the insecurities of the ill educated lower classes, or the under privileged and the left-behinds. We, as a nation, must admit that it is our fault that people are underprivileged, uneducated and left behind. So we need to correct that, if you think long term. As a nation it’s our job to provide education and opportunity. That we are not able to is quite shameful. The methods they are using are disgraceful and criminal, and for whatever it’s worth, if our governments had any b****s, people like this would be in jail. They should be in jail, and be made an example of. But because it’s all political, and because political parties are pretty much all in cahoots with each other, and they use each other as and when convenience arises, it’s one big gangrape of a helpless citizenry. They use the uneducated to prey on the educated. They use their power and muscle to render the police, the forces ineffective. In every way the political class has served to weaken the country. Though there are some good guys there who are fighting on our side, but it remains to be seen how far they’ll get. If we support them, they’ll get far. If we sit around just talking about it, nothing’s going to happen.
Any good guys you’d like to name?
Let me start small. There’s a corporator in Juhu called Adolf D’Souza. He’s non corrupt. He had been elected by a group of citizens to run for corporator, and when he ran, he won. He’s done great things in Juhu. He’s cleared the beach, so on and so forth. A hundred more of them, and the city would be sorted. Ten thousand more of them, and the whole country would be sorted – where the urban areas are concerned.
It’s a question of finding the right person for the right job. I don’t know what to say about the fact that Mr R R Patil is home minister again. I am speechless. A man who has shown callous insensitivity towards his people, his city and his responsibility, has been given the exact same responsibility again! And there’s absolute silence about it! Where are the people who took candles and had him removed last year?
We need to work towards a legitimate upliftment of people who are being manipulated by these politicians – to take away their power base. And we need to make sure that we as individual citizens are watching these guys, and voicing our displeasure when they do this nonsense. When they have 30,000 members in a particular party terrorising a city, there should be 30,000 citizens willing to stand in front of them and say you’re a thief, a crook, a gunda and a terrorist, and nothing more, and we will not be bullied by you.
Did dismissing the Chief Minister and Home Ministers (at centre and state) achieve anything?
It was the most pointless thing to do at that time. The focus of that ire, resentment and fervour as you said was clearly misguided. I’ve never been a big believer of groups and how they function, for exactly this reason. I believe in the strength of the individual and the individual mind, and it’s important that people take their own calls, out of a basic human sense of right and wrong.
There’s a video of a Pentagram song online that’s interpreted as an anti reservation video. Would you agree with that?
That song, Voice, was initially written about Bob Marley. It wasn’t meant to be a protest song. The idea arose from a documentary about how Marley became a voice for his people, and Pentagram felt that we didn’t have any such person. So the lyrics of the song go: “I need a voice now. Come be my voice now. Give me that choice now.” And what happened is, when the song came out, VH1 and Nokia decided to support it by putting the song out there and inviting people to make their own video clips about it. And making a compilation of those clips as a music video and putting it out. So a lot of people took ‘ownership’ of the song.
Now the anti-reservation movement is a movement we strongly support. This country can only get ahead by rewarding people on the basis of merit alone. The people who led it in Bombay are very close friends of ours. So we’re honoured by the way the song was adopted by the movement.
In fact in these elections some political party in Bangalore asked for Voice as their campaign song. So we asked them for their manifesto, which was the usual, non-committal junk. So we told them to b****r off.
Do you think a celebrity can make a change if he or she wants to?
It should never be about celebrity. Let’s take Mother Teresa or Mahatma Gandhi for example – sorry to sound like a Miss World participant. People followed them because what they were doing was good. Even Medha Patkar or Baba Amte. They don’t have celebrity in terms of being movie stars or musicians. I don’t think anyone will do anything just because any celebrity asks them to do it.
What about America, where rock stars became faces of protest against the Vietnam War?
You have to understand, that wasn’t a sentiment generated by celebrities. It was celebrities echoing the sentiments of the people. Nobody protested the war because Joe Cocker said so. In fact, Woodstock and all the protests against Vietnam there happened because the people felt it. Pentagram has a song called Electric and the words are: “What I’ve got inside me, you’ve got too. What I feel inside me, you feel too. In the same place, at the same time, this world is yours and this world is mine.” The meaning of that is that when we as a fabric, as a people, feel something, things will change. We can own this country, take it back and run it the way you want to if we all grow that kind of sentiment. I know it’s a little idealistic, but…
But some icons – like those in America in the period we’re talking about – gave people a place to ‘echo’ their sentiment, so as to magnify it into a larger wave…
No, you know I think even without any celebrity support that wave would have been just as strong. I don’t believe in just celebrity bringing about change. it has to be the people. I don’t believe anyone would do anything, or support a movement they don’t believe in, just because I said so.
What about a star as big as Shahrukh Khan, and his influence in small town and rural India?
Possibly if someone at that level of celebrity said something, people might follow it. That’s the kind of affection people have for our film stars. And it’s for that kind of personality to think about whether he or she wants to do something. I’m not nearly one millionth of that. I want to do what I’m doing – Small Change – as a person, as a citizen. It just so happens that I’m in a slightly known position, but that shouldn’t count for anything on this front. People should sign up at smallchange.in because they believe in what we’re trying to do.
What brought about the idea of small change?
Basically, I was sitting around at home, watching the carnage on television. 60 hours of a genuine intelligence and security disaster, a governmental failure, and most importantly a media cock-up. When I saw the commandoes being airdropped on to the roof of Nariman House, I turned to my wife and said, “They should really not be showing this.” Her dad’s from the army. He’s a Lieutenant General, recently retired. For whatever it’s worth, we have close feelings associated with the armed services - people who defend us and risk their lives for individual citizens like you and me. The fact that TV channels were putting such lives in danger just for ratings or scoops or “Sabse Aage Hum Hai” or “Sabse Tez” or whatever stupid slogans they run. That was really heartless and brutally cruel. The natural progression of that thought was: What can I do about it – to action this and get a result out of it? As an individual? Without waiting for a ‘union of individuals’ or a ‘group’ to discuss it and slowly arrive at a course of action. The plan was put the petition together, get a hundred signatures and take it to court. As it happened we got 23000 – maybe more than that – signatures for small change. And it did go to court. And every signature went along with it. The petition is currently filed before Chief Justice Swatantra Kumar of the Bombay High Court, and his department or office has been… I don’t know what the correct ‘political’ word is. The judiciary is the only real option we as citizens have, so i don’t want to offend them. But they have really been very very slow. Abominably slow. But one good thing did come out of it, because of the ‘noise’ that was generated.
All the channels did come forward and issue voluntary guidelines saying that they would not do this again, and they realise what a mistake it was. It really comes through when you watch this British documentary that was out first on Vimeo.com and recently on National Geographic. It’s a shot by shot, blow by blow account of the entire 60 hours. You can hear phone conversations between terrorists and their controllers and clear references to the live TV coverage – where the soldiers are, where the terrorists should throw their grenades, what they can do to get as many casualties as possible. So it has now been conclusively proved that the TV channels did aid and abet terrorism in their own country. So I hope that we brought about a sense of shame and sense of responsibility, and they take cognisance of this and for whatever it’s worth, be better behaved. I hope that they do know that there are citizens out there watching them, who won’t shy away from taking action against them. I think that’s the basic duty of every citizen. Clean up your own street. Whatever little problem you find, sort it, and if a billion of us start to do that, there’s no problem that’s too big. That’s why the name small change. Because we were making one ‘small change’ and the hope was each person would make one small change, and it grows exponentially.
Oh, and I have to say this. A couple of TV channels – CNN IBN most notably – did support me in this endeavour. They gave me their citizen journalist’s slot and covered it, inspite of being a TV channel themselves and inspite of my not holding back on that front at all. They never asked me to go easy on CNN IBN. They made their mistake but they were willing to pay the price for it and support what is right, which is great.
What research did you do? Something like this involves legalities and technicalities – court petitions, army strategy…
Not really, as a complete layman, I suddenly had access to what should have been classified national secrets – where our soldiers were entering from, what is their battle plan – because of the media’s irresposibility. The terrorists had this information as as well. Not much is required to see it and say – this is what you did, and this is wrong. As for the petition, I wrote it within 24 hours after I decided to do something. I wrote exactly what was in my head and in my heart. The court saw fit, very kindly, to convert it into a PIL. Which is where it stands as of now.
Have you asked or thought of asking current or ex army officers to prepare a detailed brief on the subject which you could submit as well?
I would not ask a serving officer or soldier to give me any details or to sign the petition, because their allegiance is to the Forces. Their operations and methods are classified and should remain classified. I’ve had the opportunity to interact with quite a few Armed Forces personnel because in the course of this petition, they called me and expressed their support. Some of them are still in active service in the Defence Forces, and some of them in the highest reaches of the forces. But I do think it”s crucial for the Armed Forces to prepare and publish their own study of exactly what happened, and what went wrong, so that we may learn from it. The one place where some people still place their country above their own personal interests is in the Forces, so there’s a lot to learn there.
You might similarly ask why I didn’t ask any Bollywood stars to support it, considering I know almost all of them. It would, perhaps, have added a lot of volume to the noise if I had. However, I really wanted everyone to sign the petition as a concerned citizen. Whether you’re a megastar or an officer, I felt in this respect we should be citizens first.
You’ve taken on the responsibility of two ‘small changes’. What other ‘small changes’ would you recommend people take the individual responsibility of?
There are a million things. The coast guard needs to be strengthened. The police needs to be better equipped and better trained and better paid – they are woefully underpaid and understaffed. Road contractors need to be taken to task for the lack of quality control. Illegal hawkers and slums, who are usually protected by the local politicians, must be removed. The city is in dire need of spaces for art and music, recreation and culture.
All these things need to be, and can be achieved. Pick one, start on it. Get to the end of it. Take another one and go again. Hopefully, if everyone does it, there’s no reason why this country in five or seven years can’t be a different place, where we’ll have a present to be truly proud of, not just statues of the past to worship.
How were you involved in the national or state elections, besides as a voter?
This time, I campaigned for a candidate who I thought was worthwhile – Hansel D’Souza, who’s an honest person, far as i know, and who is a professional, an educated qualified individual, with a track record of selfless social service. Campaigning alongside me were Shabana Azmi, Shaan, and people like that who were taking the time and effort to make the voice of honesty and reason heard. That was a good thing. But I felt we all got involved too late.
Now, I’m hoping to give Smallchange.in a physical manifestation – an office, a staff. What I hope to do is get people to register as voters. Since there is no place that actually co-ordinates this for people, one of the thoughts is that people come and give us their document copies, and en masse, we’ll take them and get them registered, take on the responsibility of getting those people on the electoral rolls and getting them their voter cards.
Another plan thing is to find genuine people in each locality, beyond party, colour, caste or creed, who are working for the people, for their area – and start, kind of, amplifying that work. Going from door to door, starting now, telling people what we’re doing, not asking them for money or even votes, but letting them know they can help if they want to. So it’s not like six weeks prior to elections you’re trying to inform people about an option to the big parties. I’ve been speaking to some people who’re very active, in that sense, about manning this Small Change office. That’s going to take a little time to fructify, but it’s something I want to do.
What about funding?
I’ll fund it, for whatever it’s worth. If I can, I should, right? If I need help, I’ll ask for it. No shame in that.
Going back to your earlier petition, what about the self regulatory body set up for the media.
I only want them to take the same guidelines that they’ve issued and make them legally enforceable. It shouldn’t be that we are at their mercy, and they decide whether to follow their own guidelines or not in a time of crisis. It should be that these are the crisis guidelines that every channel must follow, and if they don’t follow them legal action will be taken against them by the nation. Since they intend to follow the guidelines, I don’t see why they would have an objection to the same guidelines being enshrined in law.
Your take on terrorism, and controlling it?
America has not had a terror attack since 2001, because their citizens have voluntarily given up some of their personal space in terms of being frisked and searched. The TSA can, at will, open your bags when you travel. So if the ctizens accept the need for such measures, security can be greatly tightened. We need to empower our securty forces and rid them of this cancer called ‘political transfer’. We need to strip away the power of the politician to control the policeman. We need to empower the guardians of our society, not in a dictatorial sense, but in the sense that they have no fear of ‘political ramifications’.
Were you a political person Vishal? Even before Small Change? And were you open to expressing your politics?
As someone from the Rock community – it’s our nature and our job to question the ‘system’, ‘establishment’, ‘people in power’ and ‘the way things work’. So we’ve often spoken about it, but always flippantly. The fact that we have the strength to do something about things, that realisation only came after I started Small Change and saw the support I received.
